Reaver OP

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[Defy] FishMob
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Reaver OP

Postby FishMob » Fri Aug 03, 2018 5:31 am

Reaver is terrorizing just about every game these days. It seems way overpowered. I dont even know where to start with nerfing it. Overall the dps is god tier, it has an amazing bubble ability, great mobility with the warp prism, and built in dweb. The only hero that I have been able to consistently beat it with from any race is tempest due to its range making dweb useless.

You need a good aa hero to kill the warp prism but anything flying like viking or void ray just gets dwebbed and killed almost instantly due to its insane burst damage. Also viking or any hero with projectiles might not even get a single shot off if reaver uses its bubble. If you want ghost or festor to kill the prism you have no chance with how squishy they are. Tanky heroes like thor are ok but still die very fast to just a couple volleys or reaver throws up its bubble and cant be touched. Sometimes you do finally kill the warp prism. Ok. Well they just make a new one instantly, pick up, and fly away. I think this is a major problem with it.

Constructing a warp prism needs to start its cooldown after the warp prism dies or something. The scarab speed/damage/range all need to be reconsidered on top of that too. Like I said almost nothing can win in lane vs reaver and I dont think its a good idea to be more or less forced into going a specific hero in order to counter another. Cobalt plays almost exclusively reaver and I've heard him say multiple times that its op and he feels bad for the people he faces lol. Its gotta get nerfed.

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Re: Reaver OP

Postby Nubbins » Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:08 pm

Should rip field active be removed? If the hero is good without it then it doesn't need it.
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Re: Reaver OP

Postby FishMob » Fri Aug 03, 2018 10:05 pm

hmm yeah that might be a good approach. The speed boost scarabs get from the ability is already good in itself. Removing that bubble would open up a lot more heroes to have a chance against it.

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Re: Reaver OP

Postby FishMob » Fri Aug 03, 2018 10:10 pm

another idea I had was to make building the prism take time instead of being instant (similar to mothership).

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Re: Reaver OP

Postby Nubbins » Sat Aug 04, 2018 3:15 am

Probably going to make the ult go on CD on summon death as well as increasing mini-scarab charge time. I'm just wondering if reaver even needs to have rip field.
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Re: Reaver OP

Postby Silphyre » Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:17 pm

I kind of like rip field though, and reaver can be countered by things with numbers while it's not in its transport. I say just bring back that auto stun for when the reaver transport is destroyed and give its scarabs that "peculiar" behaviour that makes them sometimes not hit or deal less damage when the target is moving away from the scarab rather than standing still or approaching the reaver.

also, against the reaver (as protoss at least) you can just use the self stasis item to avoid that first full volley if you time it right. I know I do it often vs some heroes like the brutalisks 5-attack skill.

The nydus hero is much more op imo since it basically takes a reaver to kill it and it can farm with a minion creating skill arguably better than the marine or zealots. How much more useful would a zealot or marine be if every other time you hit it, a new marine or zealot came out? oh but make them super tanky so they can make a lot of them and let them slow down enemies so there is no escape when paired with broodling strike and then! give them an ult that just disables everything and makes absolutely sure that they can't get away. The nydus worm can still kill a reaver with good odds, so can a warhound.

Another thing to keep in mind is that reavers that don't get fed just fall all the way off most times. If you start bad with one, just leave the game because you're done (lol).

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Re: Reaver OP

Postby veritas » Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:42 pm

Reaver isnt op if it has a bad early game you lose you cant recover and you basically are worthless or you have to leave. If the reaver has a good early game that carries though to the mid game and then the hero again falls off in the late game because its not that mobile. even with the prism you also have the disadvantage of not being fast enough to force an engage with almost any hero you can only catch the players that are stupid enough to challange you without the proper numbers to win. Reaver also has a scaling glitch from around level 14 though the rest of the game where it even with lots of feed scales slower then most of the heroes you picked on for the rest of the game (I think mini scarbs didint scale right with level ups or stats and it got really noticeable in the late game where you have large numbers of stats.


Basically this is reavers performance in most games
early game its either good or it has to leave the game because it will get destroyed
mid game if its early game was good it will do amazing and if its early game was bad it will be so bad nobody will stay to see its terrible mid game
Late game if its mid game was amazing it will fall off and normalize. Its one of the few heroes i have seen go 17-0 in the mid game and end a late game at like 23-10.

Anyway Reaver has counters that basically vaporize it. If you are really scared of it just go stalker banshee or scv and the reaver will be feed or it will rage quit if your micro is good.

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Re: Reaver OP

Postby Ixidor » Fri Aug 17, 2018 4:12 pm

That's interesting. I figured I'd chime in 'cause I did play quite a bit of Reaver and stomping pubs with it through the years, and I'd have to say the rift field bubble thing is a bit over the top when I'd use it back 1-2 years ago.
As far as its overall play though, I tend to agree with Veritas' assessment of it-- it either wins its lane strong or gets rekt and obsoleted, it becomes a very dominant hero mid game from like 10-20 minutes where you can easily start going 8-0 or so, but then it starts to fall off.. not so much that its damage falls off or anything but by 20 minutes everyone has lvl 5 armor and most Terran have DMatrix and Toss have Stasis for example to obsolete your burst, so what you said...
veritas wrote:Late game if its mid game was amazing it will fall off and normalize. Its one of the few heroes i have seen go 17-0 in the mid game and end a late game at like 23-10.

...I completely agree with, and also assuming they're descent players people always tend to group more late game, it's only in pubs where people just keep splitting the same lanes over and over again that they get picked off all game like that.
And this brings me to the Reaver's biggest weakness, why it wasn't a common pick on Protoss: it didn't really fit well into "Protoss Death Ball" comp, and was never that great as a team fight. So you'd have a comp of like DA, DT, Colossus, DZ... (Reaver?) yeah.. its awkward, it was usually just way better to have a Tempest or Archon or something else when your facing late game Terran comps with like Raven/Viking/Siege Tank/etc. That's kind of my 2-cents.
The other thing is that when you switch from even semi-competitive pubs games to like... really competitive IH-style games against a team of 5 defy/gcity/etc players I always felt like Reaver never quite measured up to other carry heroes even if it performs well. It has to be able to close the gaps and get the drop to be effective otherwise it was easy for better players to avoid its presence, because you either really just want to ignore it or engage it as 2v1 or 3v1 gank, and that's commonly what would happen in IH games.

Regarding its early game I feel like saying it's OP in lane is a pretty gross exaggeration, cause although its true some of the time I felt like there were many situations it just got bullied. I remember laning against wiwups Viper and he just bullied the shit out of my Reaver, just cloud so I couldn't attack and Q me, dead-- also against good players playing stuff like Spectre, you'll get baited into 1 shot away from killing them *swoosh* lvl 1 Cloak as he chases you back to cannons for the kill or you get away by skin of your teeth and have to wait for 200 minerals. The other thing that you have to expect if your like Top Lane as Reaver in an IH, you almost know 100% your gonna get some lvl 2 gank from whoever's mid or doing critts, like expect to get swapped by a dt or a Reaper to come around back and kill you, and if they do it once, prepare to get back to your lane and them to do it again so you're like 2 levels behind so even by the time you hit 7 your no threat. I feel like that was the biggest difference compared to pubs, they'll cut you off so you cant snowball, if you even sneak in an early game kill expect their team is plotting your death very soon in a lane gank so dont even go past the bridge.

The last thing I have to address since the post is about Reavering being OP (sorry I have to ask 'cause its kind of the elephant in the room then)... so if Reaver is OP, it's this hero that has huge range and deals massive damage, has a "bubble" so it almost "can't be touched" as you said... then what do you think about Goliath?
Because IMO Goliath is far more abusive, it has huge damage in the form of an AoE, can shoot down air & ground from half a screen away, has a "bubble" that makes it untouchable to engage.... you get my point, sound familiar? That's kind of my point, they're obviously a little different cause Goliath is less of an assassin but they're both categorized as "lane pushers" in the Hero Roles, but this is just my opinion as someone who practically only played Goliath, Goliath is like 10x more abusive and stronger than Reaver, it can bubble your whole team to control watch towers and with its Ult and 30+ statups push in base, drop bubble and end games in seconds. And I just wanted to save that point about Goliath for last, because I wasn't trying to Straw Man the whole Reaver argument, but I felt like its kinda important to juxtapose before we determine one is OP and other isn't OP, or vice versa.

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Re: Reaver OP

Postby FishMob » Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:04 pm

I'll admit it was hyperbole saying tempest is the only hero that can beat it, but there are not many that stand a chance. I have seen so many people complain when they are vs it in lane that it is actually being banned in pubs at this point. I agree that it would not do as well in ih because teams have overall better lineups/players, know how to gank, etc. But that's the thing, you need two heroes to take it down (and ih is rare these days anyways). Unless you blindly pick a hero that does well vs it, you are gunna have a bad time and that's what's frustrating people. In the hands of a good player, there is no reason it doesn't get fed early on. If ganks are the only way to consistently beat it, put up an obs to watch for gank and you are set. Goliath is a good hero too, no doubt. But it's bubble doesn't block 100% of shots, it doesnt fly around in a warp prism, and its autoattack burst damage/range isn't nearly as strong. Overall I stand by it being too good in its current state.

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Re: Reaver OP

Postby Ixidor » Sat Oct 13, 2018 4:38 pm

For the record since coming back and playing some games against some good Reavers I admit it was a bit too strong, so I agree with Neptune here I was a bit naive methinks cause of the previous points made but I agree with the nerf on reload time and stun when prism destroyed. I hope it doesn’t overdo it and it starts sucking since... well, Reaver is a fun hero and it’d had its dark years of rarely being played and never good enuf for ih. Theres always this balance of making a hero useful in ih play vs it getting just broken good.


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