Ladder Discussion

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AvarN
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Ladder Discussion

Postby AvarN » Wed Aug 27, 2014 4:33 pm

The point of this thread is to finalize the details. Here are some initial questions to get this started.

How many points do you start with? How many do you win and lose? How about leavers?
How long should a ladder last until a reset?
What should be the prizes?

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Re: Ladder Discussion

Postby AvarN » Wed Aug 27, 2014 4:36 pm

From a previous thread:
Gilad wrote:Personally I think it should be 0 points for an abandon. Would discourage people from quitting games.

akuma wrote:your links requires a password
also agree with gilad
and my suggestion is make a /b/

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Re: Ladder Discussion

Postby l)arkangel » Wed Aug 27, 2014 5:15 pm

What exactly is this tracking????

Is this tracking only ladder games? Is it tracking only hero attack games? Is it tracking all games? Sorry, pretty confused about this whole thing.
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Re: Ladder Discussion

Postby Germiahish » Wed Aug 27, 2014 5:39 pm

I think it's an attempt to have a ladder system like AoS has and HoTSHoT had. The one for HoTSHoT seemed to work well, while the one for AoS seems extremely skewed.
For example, I only have few AoS games and should be considered newb but i am ranked gold in AoS, while Xenon, someone who actually plays AoS and is in a top clan, was ranked in bronze league when i played.
If we can successfully pull this off i think it will be awesome, however idk how to do it
Fus 3.0
Some wrote:This was definitely NOT Germ's fault
Germ actually did play well tbh
Germ's a solid player
Germ is better than me now

Most wrote: l2p
Germ is bad
Germ is Fus

Artrek wrote: BANNED

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEZJnyzG4jc

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Re: Ladder Discussion

Postby Germiahish » Wed Aug 27, 2014 5:54 pm

Pros:
Something new is almost always exciting
Can gauge who is new to the game/ may need help
Can see who is consistenly good/ might be interested in inhouses
Encourages more game playing in an effort to "be the very best"

Cons:
Encourages more pubbing, discourages inhouses.
Hard to find an exact science for MOBA ladder, tests may need to be done

My suggestions:
Start off with 1000 points, a nice even number is always good.

For leavers, automatic -50 points if people leave a game. -100 if kicked(supposing we get a working kick system)

For victory, +50 points for a basic victory. Additional 20 points for consecutive victories.
Also maybe a multiplier to the above total if there were leavers. Example: +10% for one, +25% for two, +45% for 3, +70% for four and +100% for five

For defeat -40(a value less than the amount that is loss for leaving may encourage people to stay)

Idk here is a basic system
Fus 3.0
Some wrote:This was definitely NOT Germ's fault
Germ actually did play well tbh
Germ's a solid player
Germ is better than me now

Most wrote: l2p
Germ is bad
Germ is Fus

Artrek wrote: BANNED

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEZJnyzG4jc

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Re: Ladder Discussion

Postby XanKortalHA » Wed Aug 27, 2014 6:32 pm

Germiahish wrote:For defeat -40(a value less than the amount that is loss for leaving may encourage people to stay)


The only issue I would say here is what about people who leave before the game times out, but after their base already been destroyed. Or what about a team that knows they are going to lose and want to surrender on good terms.

Those are my only concerns with the set up you suggested, everything else seems to look fine.
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Re: Ladder Discussion

Postby l)arkangel » Wed Aug 27, 2014 6:37 pm

let leaver penalty compound. No compounding for losses.
(# left in a row)*-50=penalty
1 game left = -50
2nd game in a row left = -100
3rd game in a row left = -150
Check out the Official HA3X Youtube Channel:
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Re: Ladder Discussion

Postby GodKingFonzy » Wed Aug 27, 2014 7:00 pm

l)arkangel wrote:let leaver penalty compound. No compounding for losses.
(# left in a row)*-50=penalty
1 game left = -50
2nd game in a row left = -100
3rd game in a row left = -150

This will probably ensure I am Bronze.
And Im okay with that.
put me in the same category as Fus, but never EVER, put me in the same category as corwin

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Re: Ladder Discussion

Postby AvarN » Wed Aug 27, 2014 7:41 pm

Unfortunately, we cannot do complicated stuff like that, yet. The API that Blizzard is giving to SC2 is pretty basic, at least for the Arcade. Games like D3 and WOW got some great stuff, though.
The API currently lets me see the history of the last matches and the results. In other words, only WIN/LOSE/BAILED... no complicated stuff like kicked. As far as I know, it doesn't let you see who participated in each game. So, it's nearly impossible to detect if the game was an in-house, a pub, or a clan war.
This is of course a step up from the previous idea that I've had, which was uploading every replay to get parsed. The good thing is that the ladder is automatic. No need to upload replays.
Hopefully Blizzard gives some love to custom games.

tl;dr: The ladder tracks only the last matches played with the name "Hero Attack." and their results.

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Re: Ladder Discussion

Postby l)arkangel » Wed Aug 27, 2014 7:43 pm

"Hero Attack 3X."

:D
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Re: Ladder Discussion

Postby AvarN » Wed Aug 27, 2014 7:59 pm

Germiahish wrote:Pros:
Something new is almost always exciting
Can gauge who is new to the game/ may need help
Can see who is consistenly good/ might be interested in inhouses
Encourages more game playing in an effort to "be the very best"

Cons:
Encourages more pubbing, discourages inhouses.
Hard to find an exact science for MOBA ladder, tests may need to be done

My suggestions:
Start off with 1000 points, a nice even number is always good.

For leavers, automatic -50 points if people leave a game. -100 if kicked(supposing we get a working kick system)

For victory, +50 points for a basic victory. Additional 20 points for consecutive victories.
Also maybe a multiplier to the above total if there were leavers. Example: +10% for one, +25% for two, +45% for 3, +70% for four and +100% for five

For defeat -40(a value less than the amount that is loss for leaving may encourage people to stay)

Idk here is a basic system


Not possible to tell apart kicked from defeated. Also, it is true that it somehow discourages inhouses. But if there is interest, maybe we can do a separate ladder for that. We would need to use some other way to track them, though.

l)arkangel wrote:let leaver penalty compound. No compounding for losses.
(# left in a row)*-50=penalty
1 game left = -50
2nd game in a row left = -100
3rd game in a row left = -150


This is actually possible. If there's enough interest with this, I'll implement it.

For now, I'm beta testing this for September. We can decide how it will work out right now. Also! Please register for this or tell people to register (pubs will be a great resource). Having only dark on this will not provide enough coverage :/. It would be good if the game loading screen had an announcement...

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Re: Ladder Discussion

Postby Germiahish » Wed Aug 27, 2014 8:18 pm

How does the rest sound?
Fus 3.0
Some wrote:This was definitely NOT Germ's fault
Germ actually did play well tbh
Germ's a solid player
Germ is better than me now

Most wrote: l2p
Germ is bad
Germ is Fus

Artrek wrote: BANNED

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEZJnyzG4jc

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Re: Ladder Discussion

Postby AvarN » Wed Aug 27, 2014 8:27 pm

Germiahish wrote:How does the rest sound?

It is possible to make it so that points increase or decrease according to a streak, like I told Dark. And the initial points are already 1000. Basically when it comes to points, almost everything is possible. We can use formulas to calculate points, add randomness to it, etc... The bad thing is that we can't know how long the games are. Making points worth more the longer the match would've been cool.

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Re: Ladder Discussion

Postby GodKingFonzy » Wed Aug 27, 2014 8:30 pm

AvarN wrote:
Germiahish wrote:How does the rest sound?

It is possible to make it so that points increase or decrease according to a streak, like I told Dark. And the initial points are already 1000. Basically when it comes to points, almost everything is possible. We can use formulas to calculate points, add randomness to it, etc... The bad thing is that we can't know how long the games are. Making points worth more the longer the match would've been cool.

Is it possible to award points for feeding?
put me in the same category as Fus, but never EVER, put me in the same category as corwin

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Re: Ladder Discussion

Postby AvarN » Wed Aug 27, 2014 8:49 pm

GodKingFonzy wrote:
AvarN wrote:
Germiahish wrote:How does the rest sound?

It is possible to make it so that points increase or decrease according to a streak, like I told Dark. And the initial points are already 1000. Basically when it comes to points, almost everything is possible. We can use formulas to calculate points, add randomness to it, etc... The bad thing is that we can't know how long the games are. Making points worth more the longer the match would've been cool.

Is it possible to award points for feeding?

Unfortunately, no. Can't track kills/deaths

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Re: Ladder Discussion

Postby Primo » Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:34 pm

I see this encouraging more pubstomps and being negative for the people that snipe them.

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Re: Ladder Discussion

Postby AvarN » Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:53 pm

Primo wrote:I see this encouraging more pubstomps and being negative for the people that snipe them.

Can someone explain me what pubstomp really means? If that means teaming up to "pubstomp," then that will get you no where. Some day you will have to separate ways (implying that all members are on ladder). Also, I see nothing wrong about pubstomps. I just see it as another way to enjoy the game. I understand that to be really balanced, the ladder should be solo. But unfortunately, there's no way to do that as far as I know.

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Re: Ladder Discussion

Postby GodKingFonzy » Wed Aug 27, 2014 10:12 pm

AvarN wrote:
Primo wrote:I see this encouraging more pubstomps and being negative for the people that snipe them.

Can someone explain me what pubstomp really means? If that means teaming up to "pubstomp," then that will get you no where. Some day you will have to separate ways (implying that all members are on ladder). Also, I see nothing wrong about pubstomps. I just see it as another way to enjoy the game. I understand that to be really balanced, the ladder should be solo. But unfortunately, there's no way to do that as far as I know.

A group of 3+ IH level players vs 6 solo pubs who think shit like Ghost is OP and DA sucks. Its almost always utterly 1 sided. A brutal slaughter as opposed to a fierce struggle being the result.
put me in the same category as Fus, but never EVER, put me in the same category as corwin

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Re: Ladder Discussion

Postby AvarN » Thu Aug 28, 2014 7:28 pm

Ok, guys. I don't want this discussion to die out. To prepare for the real ladder, I need to settle some things up.
How long should a ladder last until a reset? Should it be monthly? Quarterly?

Also, I just noticed the quick reply box is missing. :/

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Re: Ladder Discussion

Postby Tydon » Thu Aug 28, 2014 7:43 pm

Quarterly
Image

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Re: Ladder Discussion

Postby l)arkangel » Thu Aug 28, 2014 8:05 pm

I'd say make first one last a month. Then up to quarterly.
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Re: Ladder Discussion

Postby AvarN » Fri Aug 29, 2014 12:19 am

Ok. How about points? Everyone starts with 1000. When abandoning, a (50 * streak) will be deducted like suggested. How about wins and losses?

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Re: Ladder Discussion

Postby Germiahish » Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:58 am

Germiahish wrote:
My suggestions:
Start off with 1000 points, a nice even number is always good.

For leavers, automatic -50 points if people leave a game.

For victory, +50 points for a basic victory. Additional 20 points for consecutive victories.
Also maybe a multiplier to the above total if there were leavers. Example: +10% for one, +25% for two, +45% for 3, +70% for four and +100% for five

For defeat -40(a value less than the amount that is loss for leaving may encourage people to stay)

Idk here is a basic system
Fus 3.0
Some wrote:This was definitely NOT Germ's fault
Germ actually did play well tbh
Germ's a solid player
Germ is better than me now

Most wrote: l2p
Germ is bad
Germ is Fus

Artrek wrote: BANNED

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEZJnyzG4jc

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Re: Ladder Discussion

Postby AvarN » Fri Aug 29, 2014 3:00 am

Germiahish wrote:
Germiahish wrote:
My suggestions:
Start off with 1000 points, a nice even number is always good.

For leavers, automatic -50 points if people leave a game.

For victory, +50 points for a basic victory. Additional 20 points for consecutive victories.
Also maybe a multiplier to the above total if there were leavers. Example: +10% for one, +25% for two, +45% for 3, +70% for four and +100% for five

For defeat -40(a value less than the amount that is loss for leaving may encourage people to stay)

Idk here is a basic system

Does anyone agree with the (50 + 20 * streak) formula for wins?

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